Off Topic: Comparing SciFi Universes... Star Wars vs. 40K



So, this happened.

Last night I got a message on Deviant Art in response to my blog post about the Cylons vs. various SciFi factions that pretty much ignited my nerd drive for the remainder of the evening.

"reasonable thoughts in some cases, like Cylons vs Matrix or Imperium of Man from W40k. I was debating about W40k and Star Wars interaction with some friends several times and I´m pretty sure that the Star Wars would never stood a chance, since for example they have poorly armed and armored space ships compared to the Imperial Navy from W40k. Any opinions on this one? =)"

This got my brain brewing and for the next 3 hours I started gathering as much information as possible on both the Galactic Empire (something I'm a bit less familiar with) and the Imperium of Man.  I have included my response below, as well as some additional considerations.

"The Empire from Star Wars vs. The Imperium from Warhammer 40,000...I think this is pretty one sided in the Imperium's favor. Also, take into account that I am comparing the Galactic Empire at its height to the Imperium of Man during its decline... were we to compare the Galactic Empire to the Imperium during the Great Crusade there would be no debate, whatsoever. The powers of the full legions, the primarchs, the living Emperor, the Imperial Army, the Mechanicum, and the Imperial Navy would steamroll any military effort put forth by the Galactic Empire without fail.

Rationale:

Population-

Surprisingly, The Empire in Star Wars controls 69 million planetary systems and 1.75 million full member worlds (ya, I checked). The Imperium of Man only has 'more than a million' worlds, so it actually is smaller than the Galactic Empire (this shocked me). Although population does not directly affect the size of a faction's military, it does hint to the strength of its infrastructure, economy, and ability to refresh fatigued forces.

Military-

This is a tough one. Both the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man are described as having 'innumerable' forces, pushing somewhere into the trillions. However, I actually think that the Imperium of Man may have the superior military. I'm basing this off of the several factors.

In both universes, the military is comprised entirely of humans (or demihumans like squats and ogryns). Since the Galactic Empire is not entirely composed of humans, this 'humanocentrism' acts as a handicap. I can't imagine that the recruiting pool, even including clones, could be larger than the total population of the Imperium. Furthermore, nearly every storm trooper in the Empire's army is trained on Carida; that's a pretty small bottleneck for raising the elite of your military.

Conversely, every planet in the Imperium is populated solely by humans (and sometimes demihumans) providing an enormous recruiting pool. Also, nearly all planets (barring certain isolated planets, like agriworlds) in the Imperium have their own PDF (planetary defense forces) which remain on each world. On top of this, the Imperial Guard has the ability to, at least according to some of the codices and the “Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer,” recruit a planetary tithe of at least 10% of each Imperial planet's population annually. I'm not sure if this is canon, but if so that's a lot of soldiers. Furthermore, certain planets, like Cadia, are pretty much wholly recruiting grounds where 100% of the population are raised as soldiers. On top of this, The Imperium is bolstered by the forces of the Adeptus Astartes, Collegia Titanica, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Custodes, Adeptus Arbites, Frateris Militia, Inquisition, and Assassins. Also, I don't know about you, but I think a single Space Marine (there are approximately 1,000,000 of them) would be able to kill dozens of storm troopers single-handedly.

In terms of a naval size, the Imperium has between 50 and 75 ships (all cruiser or larger size) for each sector battle fleet, but the number of sectors per segmentum (there are 5 segmenti)is highly variable. I would, however, guess that there are many, many sectors since most planetary systems seem to be considered sectors. Therefore, there could potentially be 75,000,000 ships in the Imperial Navy (not including escort vessels, supply ships, etc). The Star Wars navy, on the other hand, at its peak fielded millions of warships, logistics vessels and fighters. I'm going to go ahead and say that the Imperial Navy of Warhammer 40,000 is far larger.

In terms of physical size, the Imperium's ships totally dwarf those of the Galactic Empire. An average star destroyer is only 1-2km long while the average cruiser (most common vessel in Imperium's navy) is between 5-6 km long. The largest ships in the Imperium's navy are between 6-8 km long and several are stationed within each sector battle fleet. The largest ships in Star Wars history were the Imperial Dreadnoughts which were 18 km long, but only 2 were ever built.

Special Powers-

By the time of the Galactic Empire, there are very few Jedi or Sith remaining. I'm probably totally wrong here, but according to the Star Wars wiki the Empire's military was only truly effective when under the direct control of those wielding the force, primarily Lord Vader. Since Darth Vader is only one man and can only be at one battle at a time, this is a severe hamper on the overall military efficacy of the Galactic Empire.

The Imperium of Man, on the other hand, has billions of powerful psykers serving in the Imperial Guard, Adeptus Astartes, and all branches of the Inquisition. Furthermore, the Imperium has the elite forces of the Ordo Malleus, the Grey Knights. I can't really imagine any single force in the Galactic Empire standing up to the onslaught of the Grey Knights. Also, while there is certainly no direct relationship between psychic powers and 'The Force,' it would be interesting if the Ordo Hereticus hunted the Jedi and Sith using their anti-psychic wares.


Technology-

The technology of both factions in question is very difficult to assess. Both factions are highly advanced, widely using laser weaponry, faster-than-light travel, and are space-faring. Also, both factions have the ability to create robots and other AI, although the Imperium chooses not to due previous 'thinking' machine insurrections.

In terms of basic military equipment, both line Troopers and Imperial Guardsmen seem to be similarly armed. The Empire's laser blaster is essentially equivalent to an Imperial Lasgun for all intents in purposes. Similarly, the intense training and indoctrination of even the most basic soldiers is common in both factions. I would place the Storm Troopers on a level equal to Imperial Kasrkin or Veterans, however.

I don't think it's feasible to compare every military asset between the two factions, as I have neither the time nor inclination, but I will say that the Imperium, in addition to its tanks, APCs, artillery, air force, super heavy vehicles, and other detachments employs gene-enhanced super warriors and battle titans, whereas the Empire does not. From what I've seen from the movies and read online, there is nothing even comparable within the Galactic Empire.

In terms of mobility, I must give the edge to the Galactic Empire. The Galactic Empire uses tried and true hyperdrives which consistently provide fast and safe travel between star systems. The Imperium, on the other hand, uses Warp Engines, plunging themselves into the depths of the Immaterium without guaranteed safety. Although comparable in terms of speed, the reliability of hyperdrives is the deciding factor here.

Another huge deciding factor is the ability to wipe out planets entirely. The Death Star and its successor super weapons were so terrifying because they could destroy a planet (or system in some cases) single-handedly. However, each and every sector or space marine battle fleet can completely level a planet with exterminatus. Were the Imperium so inclined, it could jump from planet to planet and exterminate each Galactic planet. Conversely, The Galactic Empire only constructed a few super weapons of such power and never (to my knowledge) did any exist at the same time.

So, overall I'm giving it to the Imperium of Man... for the Emperor!"

So what do you think of my assessment? Do you think I'm dead on, or way off? Do you like these types of posts, or do you prefer I stick to drawing and keep my nerdy pasions to myself?

Let me know! I always would like to hear what you have to say.

-Nick


18 comments:

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    1. Word. I didn't even go into Blackstone Fortresses, the insane zealotry of many Imperial forces, or the Imperium's extreme propensity for violence...I can't even imagine what storm troopers facing off against Astartes would look like... (maybe I'll paint it).

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  2. I'm a huge Star Wars fanboy and even I can't debate this. I don't think the Stormtroopers could even stand up to JUST the Imperial Guard, let alone the Astartes or the Inquisitors. Even if their forces were evenly matched in terms of numbers, the Imperium is comprised almost entirely of indoctrinated zealots who are loyally sworn to a benevolent God-Emperor, for all of whom THERE IS ONLY WAR, and there only HAS been war for the past ten thousand years. Meanwhile Stormtroopers frequently question their loyalty and get abused by their superiors, and it takes all the Emperor's focus and power to maintain the cohesion of his government in the face of some kids with X-Wings. No contest, not on any scale.

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  4. One thing I will say? I'm not certain about the armament of the Imperium's ships versus that of the Galactic Empire. Hear me out here.

    The Imperium generally isn't as technologically advanced as the Galactic Empire is. Their military infrastructure is FAR more sophisticated, their weapons of war and training techniques are doubtlessly more effective in ground combat. But technology-wise they depend very heavily on conventional projectiles and primitive lasers, but for a small percentage that's equipped with plasma. The Empire, on the other hand, has had standard-issue blasters (which are actually technically plasma weapons--not lasers) and photon torpedoes for a very long time. Not that I think a Stormtrooper's plasteel armor would stand a chance against a good chainsword, let alone a Bolter, but technically speaking, it does seem that the Galactic Empire could have the meaner guns. Not the better-trained, better-commanded, or better-equipped military, but the stronger firepower per-gun.

    This is along with a plethora of much scarier large-scale weaponry, destructive on a scale that the Imperium doesn't seem to bother itself with. Granted, most of them didn't get fielded, but it says something they were able to develop things like the indestructible, supernova-inducing Sun Crusher, or the self-replicating World Devastators, or, indeed, the Death Star and a number of other superlaser-mounted cruisers, the Sovereign Star Destroyer and the two Eclipse-classes included. I'll admit I'm not as up on the space technology of the 40k universe, but as far as I'm aware they never developed an equivalent. Star Wars is, in fact, very peculiar for the number of man-made world-destroying superweapons in its universe. No other sci-fi series I know of has as high a concentration of them, and most of them were made by--you guessed it--the Galactic Empire.

    In fact, most sci-fi universes I'm aware of don't possess hyperspace technology that's as reliable or flexible as that seen in Star Wars, 40k included. Not having to depend on the unpredictable, dangerous, demon-infested Warp for travel would give the Empire a big maneuvering advantage for certain. Other than that, things SEEM pretty even, technologically speaking. Both sets of ships employ shields of one kind or another, and both employ batteries of cannons...

    The big questions, then, are this: How good and how versatile ARE the Imperium's ship-to-ship guns? I don't doubt they can rip through a Star Wars vessel, but it's a matter of how much of their bulk is sheer firepower versus how much of it is compensation for lower-tech, lower-precision weaponry; and how able they are to account for the Empire's seemingly more sophisticated navy (which consists of ships of many classes and squadrons of starfighters). As near as I can tell, the Imperium doesn't employ starfighters a lot, but rather depends on ship-to-ship broadsides, suggesting that starfighters aren't practical at their level of advancement.

    The issue is that, first, if their guns have equal firepower, but are ten times bigger because they're less advanced, then the Empire clearly commands starship superiority, Psykers and military leadership notwithstanding; and second, If a TIE fighter's laser cannons have the equivalent firepower to one gun in a battery on a 40k vessel (I'm not saying that they do, but it is possible), that's a huge advantage--even IF the TIE fighter is a piece of crap with no shields. That's a surgeon's knife to the big, unwieldy hammer that is an Imperium warship. Likewise, if a TIE fighter can maneuver quickly enough that their guns can't hit it, that's a big problem for the Imperium.

    Now, again--I'm not that up on 40k tech where space is concerned. Ground forces I won't question, the Imperium wins that one no contest, even IF you take Star Wars's blasters for being on the level of plasma weapons. But, tell me, Nick--how do you feel my concerns about their navies hold up?

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    1. Very nice, Mike!

      I actually did some research on a few of the topics you addressed, but didn't go into detail.

      I wasn't aware of the power of a laser blaster (or that it was in fact plasma) so thanks for pointing that out. I do agree though, it probably wouldn't be a game changer in the ground combat situation.

      The Empire definitely has had it's share of super weapons (the ones you listed I did read about on the star wars wiki). The sun crushers were particularly terrifying, but it does seem like a lot of these weapons were more 'one-offs' than standard fare (aside from maybe the World Devastators). The closest super weapons I can think of are the six Blackstone Fortresses in the Gothic sector. These were each about the size of the death star, though volumetrically smaller. Not only were they super, super fleet killy but also could house many, many, fighter wings. Regardless of these two factors, they could summon a beam of pure Chaos energy from the Immaterium to destroy planets. Also, each fortress could prismatically link its beam to another fortress, amplifying the blast. Of course, the Imperium wasn't aware of this, but you get the point.

      The weapons aboard the imperial fleet (40K) shouldn't be underestimated. Although a ship's arsenal may vary, there are tons of nasty high tech monstrosities aboard. Here are some:

      Lances (laser arrays)
      Torpedoes (60-300 ft missiles)
      Nova Cannons (giant railguns- the ship has to use its engines to compensate for the recoil)
      Plasma Projectors
      Close-range Missile launchers
      Laser Cannons
      Fusion Beamers
      Graviton Pulsars
      Railguns
      Kinetic Projectiles (slug throwers)

      Aside from the Nova Cannons, all other weapon systems are set up in massed batteries of numerous ranks.

      Also, most cruisers contain fighter and bomber detachments. The largest ships can carry up to 2000 fighter craft, bombers and dropships.

      Another thing to consider is that space marines are just that; dudes who ride assault boats into your capital ship and then fight a ground war inside your ship. There are some accounts I've read about where this happens and it seems pretty terrifying (especially since space marines don't really care about the vacuum of space and will happily blow out a wall in order to suck the enemy out of their ship.

      What do you think?

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    2. I must stand up to the defence of the Imperial Navy weaponry, since by the fluff and books I read, they are pretty nasty things tearing up void shields and armored ship holds with just a few hits. Also the Navy is known for sometimes ramming enemy vessels and boarding them (continued with assault on bridge or sabotage in engineering). For the starfighers and bombers, they are used on the sector fleet level and single Starhawk bomber is capable of taking doww capital ship with plasma bombs of torpedos once he's got in range.

      And for the side of the Empire, i didn't seen much weapons comparable to those of the Imperial Navy. Maybe I'm not that much deep in the Star Wars universe, but what weaponry and how much I saw on the Empire Destroyers, they are pretty much outgunned by the Navy, since Corilian crusers have dozen of quad batteries and some broadside battery, the Navy ships are more like large pile of weapons against everything from fighters to battleships with large engines and void shields attached to it all enclosed in thick armor.

      All of this is just my personal opinion and I could be bias in favor of the Imperium, since I favor W40k universe and the Imperium of Man more than any other sci-fi universe (exception is Mass Effect, which is on the same place like W40k).

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    3. Thanks for the reply, dude! I really appreciate you weighing in on the discussion. I agree too, since from what I can tell every inch of a 40K cruiser is lined with guns (except for maybe the ramming front, engines in the rear, and command/sensor spires).

      I don't know if you've read the 'Soul Hunter' series from the Black Library at all, but they have some pretty sweet naval battles between Chaos and Loyalists ships.

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    4. After having looked at Nick's reply, I feel I can weigh in on the relative technological level of the Imperium's and the Galactic Empire's weapons.

      Simply put: The Imperium is over ten thousand years behind the Galactic Empire's technology, if not tens of thousands of years. On ground I can concede quite a bit, but in space it means everything.

      BASIC ARMAMENT --
      The deciding factor in all this is the Star Wars deflector shield, which is absurdly powerful in that it doesn't take into account the relative momentum of the projectile being fired at it; it is in fact an energy barrier that counteracts anything that touches it, physically burning organic matter to the touch and nullifying impact. Their power is such that physical impact or collision is rendered totally ineffective. To put it in perspective, you can put two starfighters against one another in a head-on collision at top speed; the worst that'll happen is they spin out for a while, then continue flying on their marry way. To penetrate them, it is necessary to employ blasters (starfighter-grade) or, more preferably, turbolasers (starship-grade), which can work at a higher rate of fire and a higher yield (Note: "turbolaser" is a misnomer; these are also technically plasma weapons). These are roughly the equivalent of the Imperium of Man's most powerful and most advanced weapons, and they are standard issue on even junkers in the Star Wars universe. Star Wars vessels are also regularly equipped with ion cannons, which are designed for the express purpose of disrupting and disabling electronic equipment; literally blasters and turbolasers designed for nonlethal damage.

      Adding to this, standard "heavy weapons" in the Star Wars universe are also considerably more advanced. The proton torpedo is their most basic armament, and it has a higher yield and more compact form factor than anything the Imperium would possess as an equivalent--such that standard armament for a starfighter is a pack of four to six of these things. Star Destroyers are known to be armed with thousands for the purpose of both ship-to-ship combat and planetary bombardment. In fact, the yield of these weapons alone is so great that the Death Star or any of the Galactic Empire's Star Dreadnoughts are thought to be overkill; a single Imperial-class Star Destroyer was more than enough to oppress and threaten an entire star system. Meanwhile, there are many other missile variants. Magnetic pulses are designed to be like the "ion cannon" equivalent of the proton torpedo. Heavy rockets are slower-moving but higher-yield projectiles designed specifically for anti-capital ship duty. These comprise, again, standard armament. A wide variety of much more exotic heavy weapons exist in this universe as well.

      The Galactic Empire has a clear advantage here. The Imperium has weapons that can hurt them, but to a limited degree. Their lascannons and lancers would scratch their shields, their plasma projectors would prove a decent threat, but their projectile-based weapons, railcannons, missiles, and explosives would be inadequate, such that they could only hope to inflict death by a million cuts. This is certainly a realistic possibility; the Imperium of Man does field this stuff in great enough numbers, but my point is that they HAVE to in order to make it an even fight. The only shaky element in this I can identify is the Nova Cannon, a railgun of such extreme force with such a nasty projectile that it could be a feasible starship buster. Just not a terribly efficient one.

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    5. STARFIGHTERS --
      The Imperium's starfighters are no match for most starfighters in the Star Wars universe. They're comparable in form factor and, I'll be willing to grant, maneuverability, but they aren't armed with weapons or explosives strong enough to deal with deflector shields. Fortunately for the Imperium the vast majority of the Galactic Empire's starfighters aren't equipped with shields, which would put dogfights on an even keel. TIE fighters are certainly lighter and more maneuverable, and better-armed--but not more durable. They also aren't fielded in as great a numbers; the Imperial-class Star Destroyer carries only about 150-200 TIE fighters to the 2000 fighters and bombers on a 40k cruiser. Granted, this represents a class of vessel that's not as common within the Imperium as a Star Destroyer is in the Galactic Empire, but it's still a standard vessel with ten times the starfighter compliment.

      The Galactic Empire's TIE squadrons are armed well enough to wreck 40k starships on any scale, with each one being equipped with weapons on par with the most advanced armament in a 40k fleet. It's like if you were trying to swat a gnat, but instead of biting you and making you itch for a few days it could inflict literal bullet wounds. Against 40k fighter squadrons? Much less certain an outcome. The TIE Fighter eventually became outmoded by the much faster, TIE Interceptor, which can out-maneuver practically anything in the Star Wars universe, much less the 40k universe; on the other hand, that may matter very little if you're outnumbered by more than ten to one. Until the Empire brings in more advanced vessels, like the TIE-Advanced or the TIE-Defender--elite units reserved for special squadrons and situations--the odds of a dogfight seem tipped in the Imperium's favor.

      As soon as they DO bring in the TIE-Advanced? The Imperium's done for. That's a hyperspace-capable, shield-equipped vessel with a full compliment of torpedoes, the Empire's answer to an X-Wing. It never achieved a point where it out-fielded any of the more well-known vessels, but squadrons of them were deployed regularly, and with the disparity in shield and missile technologies it is conceivable that a Star Destroyer with a standard TIE compliment plus a single TIE Advanced squadron could out-fight a 40k space force. Just a few well-placed proton torpedoes, let alone a TIE-Advanced surgical strike, could end a fight before it starts.

      Where this gets dicey is the numbers. It seems that 40k vessels aren't oversized because they're ill-equipped or because they have weak-yet-jumbo-sized technology, but rather because the Imperium of Man really is just that numerous. What you'd hope for as the commander of a 40k cruiser is that the other side gets exhausted by the sheer number of expendible mooks you're throwing at them, and that if you can persistently and reliably train your biggest guns on an Imperial capital ship you stand a chance of bringing down their shields, allowing you to put Space Marines on their deck or actually make a valid tactic of ramming them. If an Imperial capital ship gets boarded, make no mistake, it's over for them. One force of Space Marines could tear up the Death Star by themselves. The Psyker problem is also dicey. No force in the entire Star Wars universe outside of the Yuuzan Vong has a reasonable defense against large-scale psychic powers or 40k warp phenomenon. Equivalent force powers in the Star Wars universe, such as battle meditation or the Emperor's force storms (which are enough to wreck a fleet) prove enough to end battles swiftly. But then, the Imperium needs to last long enough against a force armed completely with weapons and equipment that are better than their best in order to bare those teeth.

      It's close. Close enough, I'd say, that I'd call this an even fight.

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    6. As for Mass Effect, Guardsman: I have no doubt that both the Imperium of Man and the Galactic Empire would steamroll the entire Mass Effect universe and conquer that galaxy handily. The alliance's primary weapons are railguns, their biotic and tech powers are both very limited in scale, their mass relay propulsion systems are crippled compared with warp travel and hyperspace drives, and every military they possess suffers from exceptionally weak cohesion even compared to the dictatorial state of the Galactic Empire. It'd be like pitting Robert E. Lee with a modern military against the modern-day US congress with a starving military force from the Civil War.

      A better match-up MIGHT be pitting them against Starfleet, with whom they have many more similarities in terms of fleet structure and ground combat methods (the general design and "away team" structure were lifted directly FROM Star Trek). Even then, Starfleet would handily clear the board due to superior leadership, if not vastly superior firepower and technical knowhow.

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    7. Hmm interesting points... I think the hardest part of these debates are figuring out technological interactions. For example, in Dune lasguns aren't like Imperial Guard lasguns (flashlights), they are more like concentrated streams of pure plasma energy. Supposedly, they just annihilate everything, even at a nuclear level. Of course, you rarely see them used since a single lasgun impact against a 'shield' (Holtzman generator) causes a nuclear explosion which can be more powerful than an atom bomb. Similarly, shields in Dune are impenetrable, except by slow moving objects (the slow blade penetrates the shield).

      Imperial ships use 'void shields' which, to an extent, nullify any energy or projectile based weapons. Although it is never fully explained, these apparently use Warp energies to either absorb or deflect the placement of projectiles and energy in space and time. I would imagine, however, that the shields from any universe would inevitably collapse after prolonged bombardment (something which is confirmed on the wikis). So ya, assault boats are probably not the best idea, at least not in the initial confrontation (maybe once the shields are down, but that's how they're used in 40K anyway), but I'm not sure about ramming. Remember, nearly all Imperial Cruisers have ramming prows (void shield protected) and forward mounted batteries. I could see forward bombardment from turbo lasers (also a 40K term) possibly weakening the shields of a star destroyer enough to allow the void shield-protected ramming prow to break through. Then again, there's really no way to know what the hell would happen when a void shield touched a deflector shield.... it's very possible that they could bounce off each other, the deflector shield would be absorbed/displaced by the Warp (as if it were an energy weapon), a warp tear could open up and destroy both ships, or possible one or both ships' shield generators would fail. To make matters worse, I just learned about a non-standard type of Imperial Torpedo, the 'void' torpedo. Upon detonation, it creates a tear in the fabric of reality and shreds apart nearby ships as they are plunged into the Immaterium (definitely going to need void shields in there).

      However, I still have to go Imperium, even if it's only by a little. Imperial Ships are way more numerous and far larger, allowing them to field larger weapons and stronger shields (even the smallest cruisers are at least 2.5 times larger than a star destroyer and the bigger ones can be 4 times larger). Similarly, I could be wrong on this one, but I feel like the dogmatic Imperium would totally freak at the discovery of the Galactic Empire and declare a Crusade where the only outcome was victory or death. Once again, I could be wrong, but that sort of 'insane' element doesn't seem to be as much a part of the Galactic Empire's MO. Also, I'm kind of curious what kind of agents from the Officio Assassinorum or some of the master level psykers would do to the Galactic Empire's morale. Similarly (and I totally forgot this before) the Imperium has access to teleporation technology, something that makes boarding parties way easier. If this were Star Trek vs. The Galactic Empire, I would say no way- an away team's molecules would get destroyed if they tried to pass through a deflector shield, however we know that 40K teleportation moves soldiers through the warp from point A to point B, so no worries there.

      I kind of really want to do a painting of Astartes terminators teleporting onto the bridge of a capital ship and raising hell.

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    8. Ahh, now, teleportation. I keep forgetting about that, I'm a bit of a newbie to the game of 40k and never ran deep strikes. Interesting point; Star Wars has, in fact, no teleportation technology.

      You make a lot of good points... On one hand, the Galactic Empire would surely tremble before the might of Psykers. On the other hand, the Imperium's greatest weakness is arguably technological stagnancy and ignorance. One side knows its technology very, very well and frequently produces new weapons in response to specific threats; the other hasn't advanced for ten thousand years and uses "machine spirits" to explain equipment malfunctions. It's more feasible that the Empire could capture an Imperium vessel and learn the secrets of Warp technology and backwards-engineer their own equivalent of the Astartes than it is for the Imperium to grasp hyperspace travel, for instance. Maybe worse yet, what if the Emperor got in contact with the forces of Chaos and allied himself with them? -_O Darth Vader as a Daemon Prince? Pure Hell.

      At this point, though, we've gone way beyond how the two forces would fare in a battle and into the realm of what a full-scale war would play out like as a plot in a story. I'm digging the discussion, but at this point I'm going to have to bow out. XD I got stuff to do!

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  5. Well,I´ve started this discussion in the first place, then I should participated in it,eh?(I´m cadian8th from deviantArt). =)

    I didn´t read it, but I´ve read large part of Gaunt series, whole Caplurnia series and 13th penal legion series, Ciaphas Cain series (most of it), Maelstrom (which has pretty good story about Navy bombers), Grey Knight series, some books about Ragnar, but after two books I decided to stop, since it mostly doesn´t follow fluff and make sence and also Imperial Guard novels like Gunheads, Cadian Blood (awesome piece I must say) and many others. Most of it is about Imperial Guard since it´s my favorite faction in the W40k.

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    1. Cool, glad you could join in!

      I haven't read any of those series except for the Ragnar series, though I agree they didn't feel too fluffy. I thought that 'Prospero Burns' and 'A Thousand Sons' were much, much, much better in terms of story and loyalty to the 40K universe.

      I'm a big fan of the Horus Heresy (I'm on 'Outcast Dead' but it's a little slow at the moment) and Soul Hunter series, as well as anything having to do with the Mechanicum or Iron Hands (my favorite legion/chapter).

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    2. I read Titanicus, which is pretty damn good, if you don't read it yet yourself =).

      I can recommend you the Shira Calpurnia series about Arbites, they give the inside look in the function of the Adeptus Arbitres and life of Imperial hive world citizens, there are some mechanicus characters too, one of them is Magos Biologis, good and deadly guy at the same time.

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    3. Very cool- I'll have to check them out once I get a minute!

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